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Tony wants to know why non-Catholics have so much to say…(from the comment boxes below)

July 14, 2007

Tony said in response to my post on Sr. Joan and the Latin Mass:

How can we even begin to try to live in global harmony if we are constantly trying to prove the unproveable: that my God is THE God, and if you don’t get spiritual in my way, you are doomed.
You don’t believe that your God is The God?  Last I knew (and I might be dating myself) the Episcopalians believe that their God was The God, too.

Jesus calls us to love our neighbor.  Loving our neighbor is wishing what is best for him or her.  I believe that worshipping my God the way He wants is what’s best for him or her.  I will tell them this, not in a pushy, counter-productive way, but in a kind and gentle way.

Ignoring substantial theological differences in the name of non-confrontation is not love, it’s the opposite of love which is apathy.

If your friend were an alcoholic, would you leave them alone for the sake of “ecumenism”?  Or would you tell them the hard truths they need to hear?

That my God is a man, and that my God will only let you in if you agree with me that this is a men’s club only, and only for Roman Catholic Christians, because the rest of that lot know nothing of the real God. That lay people are meaningless, and there is no point in living in Christian Community. None at all. Well, my God is a man, I know He is, because it says in the Bible where he was circumcised. 😉  Jesus the man (who had a penis who was circumcized), tells us to pray to God  by saying: “Our Father who art in heaven…” (you guys in the Episcopal church don’t say “our mother” or “our parent” or some such PC hogwash like that, do you?) (Actually, Tony, some Episcopals do pray to Our Mother, or use a non-gendered term for God, such as the Ground of All Being, or the Creator – but it is seen much less often than the traditional patriarchal language)

So, my God, if not a man, has the attributes of a Father.  

I find it interesting that the people who are not Catholic have the most to say about Catholic doctrine.

My answer:
Well Tony…. 

#1)  I was baptized, confirmed,  and raised Roman Catholic, and was an active Roman Cathlolic until last year (I’m 37 now).  I graduated from an all woman’s Catholic College (twice), and also worked there for seven years, while I was an active Roman Catholic.  I have a background to speak on this subject. I know active RCs who have some of the same theologies as I do, whether you like it or not. Or whether Beneditct likes it or not. Additionally, the RCC says, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Since they won’t recognize my renunciation, I’ll continue to keep tabs on what they are doing.

#2) Since I still have family members who are active Catholics (my parents are active EMs, and everyone else in my family is RC but me and another cousin who has decided she is actively atheist), I have a vested interest.

#3) I don’t believe what you believe about the One True Church or the One True God. That I hold that belief is my own thinking. I don’t believe I represented it as the “brand belief” of any Christian church. I don’t believe that is my job. I am an active Episcopalian, and as one, I can own my own beliefs.  I also don’t need others to believe my beliefs for me or any other such non-sense. If you do, so be it. RCCs the place to be for you.

#4) You said “Ignoring substantial theological differences in the name of non-confrontation is not love, it’s the opposite of love which is apathy.”  And asserting that your way is the only way is tribal arrogance and bigotry of the worst sort.  I believe that in my heart, and I am telling you that because that is what my God tells me, and I don’t want you to suffer under your own brand of arrogance. I tell you this because I love you, and want you to become the loving inclusive Christian God wants you to be.

 #5) RCs are not biblical literalists.  Judaic tribes were patriarchal, and therefore, being men and in power, they couldn’t conceive of God being anything other than a man.  So, while I agree that Christ was a man, I don’t necessarily think God is. I personally believe God is ambisexual or omnisexual: encompassing the totality of genders.  My God is big enough for that. If your little man brain can’t deal with that, it’s more your problem than God’s. Additionally, not all RCs believe God is just a “man” – they put up with that construct/ideology for their own reasons. In the same vein, not all Episcopalians believe God is a man only: although, nobody will argue with you that Jesus was a man. And why did the Divine Reality have to send a man – because no-one living at that time would have listened to a woman claiming to be the daughter of God – they were patriarchal, remember? God knows and understands the flaws in his creations, and doest the best to work with what God’s got in us.

#6) If you don’t like what you read here, there is nothing which forces you to come here.

Oh and BTW, Tony, after reading your blog, Sr. Joan, is ORDAINED, and you aren’t, your lack of respect for her his actually apalling for one who calls himself an neo-cath, and one who is supposed to submit to authority – OH…but she’s a woman. Wrong, equipment, right? Asshat. Sorry I wasted my breath on you.

To see what I mean go check this out: http://www.catholicpillowfight.com/

Eileen

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20 Comments leave one →
  1. July 14, 2007 8:24 pm

    Having been an active Catholic until I was 36, I agree with everything you said here. You express my thoughts much better than I ever could. Great post!

  2. lj02 permalink
    July 14, 2007 9:21 pm

    “I tell you this because I love you, and want you to become the loving inclusive Christian God wants you to be.”

    hahahahaha. best line. also the most important one.

  3. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 14, 2007 9:38 pm

    I knew someone out there would appreciate that line.

    How many times have I heard the perpetuation of bigotry and prejudice in the name of God and Christ – who didn’t speak of such things.

    Paul might have, but, last I check, Paul didn’t have claim on being divine.

    Silly woman that I am, I know.

  4. July 14, 2007 9:42 pm

    And on a completely different topic Blue Gal has up a photo you’ll enjoy.
    (that lj02 was me, too. just back to lj)

  5. July 14, 2007 11:00 pm

    Ever since the Roman Church left us in the 16th century we have been distressed by certain false teachings, especially about the role of the Bishop of Rome. As members of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, we owe it to our Roman sisters and brothers to offer fraternal correction, especially when they say very rude things that contradict what the best Roman Catholic theologians have to say.

  6. July 15, 2007 12:59 am

    I have a background to speak on this subject. I know active RCs who have some of the same theologies as I do, whether you like it or not. Or whether Beneditct likes it or not.

    Actually, some “RC’s” believe in space aliens, the Da Vinci Code, human caused global warming and other such tripe. This doesn’t make it true Catholic teaching. It’s real easy to find what true Catholic teaching is. Simply go to http://www.vatican.va.

    Since I still have family members who are active Catholics (my parents are active EMs, and everyone else in my family is RC but me and another cousin who has decided she is actively atheist), I have a vested interest.

    I’m sure that they, like I, am praying for you. I’ll be naming you in the intentions to the Blessed Mother at tomorrow evening’s rosary.

    I don’t believe what you believe about the One True Church or the One True God. That I hold that belief is my own thinking. I don’t believe I represented it as the “brand belief” of any Christian church. I don’t believe that is my job. I am an active Episcopalian, and as one, I can own my own beliefs. I also don’t need others to believe my beliefs for me or any other such non-sense. If you do, so be it. RCCs the place to be for you.

    That’s fine and dandy. God gave us free will so we can follow whatever path we wish. Nobody believes my beliefs for me (this is a common Catholic myth). I just simply believe in the teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church whose Bible Henry the 8th used before he got tired of killing his wives and decided to found his own church (oh, and whose canon Bill Carrol uses whether he wants to admit it or not… well… except for those pesky 7 book that Martin Luther eliminated on his own authority.)

    You said “Ignoring substantial theological differences in the name of non-confrontation is not love, it’s the opposite of love which is apathy.” And asserting that your way is the only way is tribal arrogance and bigotry of the worst sort. I believe that in my heart, and I am telling you that because that is what my God tells me, and I don’t want you to suffer under your own brand of arrogance. I tell you this because I love you, and want you to become the loving inclusive Christian God wants you to be.

    That so nice. Barney the Dinosaur nice. I wuv you… you wuv me… we are one big fam-mi-leeee…

    We’re inclusive too, but we believe in this pesky idea of sin. We believe we are unworthy of God’s grace, but He showers it on us anyway. We won’t mince words when you are doing things that God doesn’t like. Oh, we’ll continue to love you as a sister, but some things just aren’t right, and that includes other things besides the “cardinal sin” of “intolerance”.

    RCs are not biblical literalists. Judaic tribes were patriarchal, and therefore, being men and in power, they couldn’t conceive of God being anything other than a man.

    What about that pesky “Jesus” guy. The one who told us to pray to God as “our Father”. And prayed to His “Father in heaven”. Oh, yeah. That was written by those patriarcial gospel writers inspired by the Holy Spirit who is probaby a woman anyway. So we’re going to re-write that pesky Bible using the spirit of Kumbaya and Lilith or whatever “goddess” figure we’re currently worshipping.

    So, while I agree that Christ was a man, I don’t necessarily think God is.

    God is Jesus (or isn’t trinitarian belief required to be an Episcopalian?) Jesus said: “My Father in heaven”, not “My mother in heaven” or “my omnisexual-non-gendered-parent-in-heaven”.

    And why did the Divine Reality have to send a man – because no-one living at that time would have listened to a woman claiming to be the daughter of God – they were patriarchal, remember?

    So what’s your excuse for not listening to Him now?

    If you don’t like what you read here, there is nothing which forces you to come here.

    Nope. Likewise nothing forces you to come to my place. I like to think that my comments are a little more substantial than yours.

    ##
    episcopalifem Member Posts: 1

    Re: Another “Catholic” Heretic’s Head Catches Fire
    Posted on: 07/14/2007 10:23 PM
    I get your asshattery now, Tony.

    Totally.
    ##

    Very nice. short and to the point. Now that’s that ol’ time inclusive Christian love you’ve been talking about. Refreshing. I can’t wait to join up.

    Oh and BTW, Tony, after reading your blog, Sr. Joan, is ORDAINED, and you aren’t, your lack of respect for her his actually apalling for one who calls himself an neo-cath, and one who is supposed to submit to authority – OH…but she’s a woman. Wrong, equipment, right? Asshat. Sorry I wasted my breath on you.

    Oh, and BTW, Eileen, last I knew Sr. Joan was Roman Catholic. As such it is impossible for her to be ORDAINED simply because she is invalid matter for the sacrament. Attempting to ORDAIN Sr. Joan would be as ludicrous as trying to consecrate oreos and milk into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

    It wouldn’t matter if she took one of the “Womyn-priest magical mystery tours” and the Pope himself did the ceremony.

    BTW, thanks for the link. I always like traffic. I like dissenting traffic best of all. Can’t pillow fight with the choir. 🙂

  7. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 15, 2007 4:56 am

    Nice diatribe.

    Thanks for stopping by Tony. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

    Buh-bye, and remember God loves you and so do I (even though saying that makes me throw up a little in my mouth),

  8. July 15, 2007 7:14 am

    because she is invalid matter for the sacrament.

    Niiiicccce, Tony, very nice.

    Love that women are “invalid matter.” I’ll be sure to ask God what God thinks about that idea when I get the chance….

    Oh and Tony—-look up “sophia.” It’s feminine. Part of the Trinity—which is ALSO God.

  9. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 15, 2007 7:41 am

    Yes, Doxy, but the only part that matters is the “Father” part.

    I’m glad he stopped by to reaffirm my decision to leave that mess behind me as a good one.

    God has a way of giving us just what we need, even when we aren’t looking for it.

  10. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 15, 2007 7:43 am

    Also…lmao @ invalid matter. WTF is that?

    Like women are a mass of inert material, good only for breeding?

    Oh…I forgot – he’s a neocath! What was I thinking?

  11. July 15, 2007 9:07 am

    Also…lmao @ invalid matter. WTF is that?

    The matter is the material part of confecting the sacrament. (You said you were Catholic for what… 37 years). Invalid matter invalidates the sacrament. I gave an example of that with trying to consecrate oreos and milk. Nothing wrong with oreos or milk. I like them both. But they don’t work with the sacrament.

    Like women are a mass of inert material, good only for breeding?

    You said that, I didn’t. They’re just not valid for the ordained priesthood of the Catholic Church.

  12. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 15, 2007 9:21 am

    Um Tony, I said I WAS a Catholic. I know the teachings – I just reject the argument upon which they stand. And many progressive Catholics do as well. Actually, many moderate Catholics (read the mass middle) do as well. Those beliefs and teachings are culturally based. Paul talked about them alot – but let’s keep in mind that Paul was a Pharisee before his conversion – he just transfered his zeal.

    The fact of the matter is that Jesus didn’t say a word about it. I’m of the belief that Mary Magdalen was a priest as well, and that she was maligned by the same church who later went on to define what was “material”.

    I’d explain it to you, but it would be a waste fo my breath.

    Your mind is closed. You have a nice neat package that is easy to digest, and doesn’t require anything of you but that you follow the recipe. The Holy Spirit is still speaking – it is a living church after all, and proof of life is growth and progress – not stagnation.

    As an Episcopalian, I obviously support women’s ordination. Both my parish priests are currently women, and I get the Eucharist from them each weekend. Quelle horreur!

    I receive the Eucharist every weekend from two of them.

    It’s great.

  13. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 15, 2007 9:24 am

    And Tony – that’s what you mean – a woman has her place, and obviously, it isn’t in talking with God, or being able to be the medium through which God and the Holy Spirit work.

    Dirty menstruating women, who are physically weaker than man, and not the same sex as Jesus cannot possibly be able to consecrate the Eucharist. I mean – that would just be making a farce of everything. They are only good for cleaning the altar, singing in the choir, and being chaste or married and pumping out kids.

    That crap doesn’t doesn’t hold water with me.

    It obviously does with you, and so, I leave the RC church to you and yours.

  14. July 15, 2007 10:47 am

    Gah. I couldn’t even finish reading that. It made me shake.

    Now he’s in your comments.

    Okay, for the record: Jesus also said, “Feed my sheep.”

    Tony, when you make God a man you’re making God smaller than God is. God is mother and father. The best devotional traditions have many names for God; because the more names we use to describe God the more fully we understand God, the more wholly we come to see God. God is key, rock, door, dove, wind. To the psalmist God is midwife; to Isaiah a comforting mother; in Exodus, the ultimate Being; in Luke a shepherd and a woman searching for a lost coin; in Hebrews, a consuming fire.

    Language that in the first century was used to preach a personal God somehow got turned into a God that is a person.

    And that’s all I’m going to say about it.

  15. July 15, 2007 1:33 pm

    How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you, desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, “Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord.”

    Matthew 23:38b-39

    There’s that pesky hen getting the way, taking care of her brood.

  16. July 15, 2007 4:15 pm

    And Tony – that’s what you mean – a woman has her place, and obviously, it isn’t in talking with God, or being able to be the medium through which God and the Holy Spirit work.

    I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t put words in my mouth, because that is not what I mean. As a married man I am also invalid matter for the sacrament of Holy Orders.

    I understand that this gender thing is your hobby horse, but it’s tedious when everything viewed through that distorted prism.

  17. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 15, 2007 5:21 pm

    Now it’s my turn to lol @ you. I don’t think clergy should be required to be celibate either – although I think there are some people who feel called to be celibate. So I also reject your invalidation to/for ordination as a married person. But that’s neither here nor there.

    #1) YOU came here and asked the question in response to my idle prattle. I answered. I didn’t invite you, and right at the top of this blog it is says I’m ex-RC and a feminist. WTF did you think I would say? So either you like to have pointless arguments because you have no life or you are stupid. From what I can see of your responses, the latter option doesn’t seem to be the case. What’s a girl left to think?

    #2) You keep coming back and responding, despite being *yawn* bored by the answers. I keep coming back because I love to hear myself talk. This is my blog after all.

    #3) I have a graduate degree in counseling. I understand that unless a person has a very strong reason to do so, religious and political thought tends to remain very stable- it’s too close to core values – the very things that make us what and who we are, the things that speak most deeply to what we are all about. I’m not looking to convert you, or anyone else. This is why I left the RCC. I decided to speak with my feet, because that boys club isn’t going to change, and I don’t want to raise my family in such a close-minded place. I did so as prayerfully as you chose to remain RC. I think the RCC is a great place for you, and those whose spiritual needs are like yours. Be there strongly with God. I believe in my heart of hearts that the Creator is ready to meet us each where we are.

    God’s purpose is not human’s, and we are not capable of fully grasping the whole picture. Who can really say how God defines “unified” especially when the world the Creator mades us stewards over is so diverse. We can each only be responsible for the piece that is ours. It isn’t my job to convince you that I’m right and you are wrong. It satisfies me that you are a Christian, and struggling to live a good Christian life. The details of how you go about achieving that end are between you and Sophia.

    I’m personally more worried about the numbers of fine human beings who run screaming from Christianity in general, and who feel that agnosticism or atheism are their only real choices if they are to remain sane. Lots of wrong has been done in the name of religion (and not just Christianity) – that is the problem with tribalism. If somebody’s god is the only real God, then lots of people are going to be put out. The only way to peace is to find a way to respect our differences, embrace our similarities and get over the superiority complex humans suffer under as a species. Again, I know that you feel that those who run screaming are not worthy – are defective in some way, or irresponsible in some way – not willing to live with their sins or whatever. I just don’t believe that. God’s grace is his own to give as God sees fit. The only requirement is that we re-turn to God (turn back toward God). Remember how mad the prodigal son’s brother was that his dad through him such a big party, after we he had squandered his money, and made a mess of his life. The brother had always remained, had always done what the father expected, and what reward did he get? Neo-cons remind me of the brother, in many ways.

    Listen – we are coming from two totally different places I have no false expectation we’ll ever likely meet. Notice I didn’t stay to argue with you at your blog. I read two or three sentences and learned all I needed to know. You aren’t interested in dialogue – just neo-con ranting.

    If you don’t like what you read here, don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. And if you feel the need to keep hitting your head on a hard thing, over and over, because it’s fun – well, you can get treatment for that, but not from me. It’s outside my expertise. I’ll pray for us both.

  18. catholicfem permalink
    July 16, 2007 1:49 pm

    //Tony, some Episcopals do pray to Our Mother, or use a non-gendered term for God, such as the Ground of All Being, or the Creator – but it is seen much less often than the traditional patriarchal language)//

    To help clarify things, a major reason why Catholics like myself insist on using male pronouns to address God is because we already have a Mother–Mary–who is the mother of the Church and of all Catholics. Especially for neo-Caths like Tony and myself, addressing God as “our mother” would just be disrespectful to the Mother we already have. Obviously, this may not apply to Episcopalians and other non-Catholics, but it does demonstrate that neo-Caths have actual reasons to use male pronouns and are not just “tribal arrogence and bigotry of the worst sort”.

    //Additionally, the RCC says, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Since they won’t recognize my renunciation, I’ll continue to keep tabs on what they are doing.//

    Yes, you have recieved the sacraments and are thus Catholic in that sense. However, since you are no longer in communion with Rome, you would not necessarily be considered Catholic unless you renewed your ties by recieving confession. Also, if you are interested, you can contact the diocese you were baptised/confirmed in, fill out some forms, and have your name removed from the list of baptised/confirmed. Ta da, official recognition of your renunciation.

  19. catholicfem permalink
    July 16, 2007 1:50 pm

    Excuse me, I should have said “not just tribal arrogence” and not “are not just”. My apologies.

  20. episcopalifem permalink*
    July 16, 2007 3:39 pm

    Catholicfem –

    Thanks for dropping by – My comment regarding tribalism inherent in all One True God/Church/religion brands has nothing in particular to do with how people refer to God. The Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition is inherently tribal in nature, and was patriarchal. The tradition of the language used in the RCC has NOTHING to do with Mary (even though it might for you personally). If they could have figured out a way for Jesus to have appeared, and been human without having to passs through the birth canal, they would have. There is not to my non-marian expert knowledge ever been a thing said/thought about Mary which would lead me to believe she’d be offended by God as the eternal every parent father and mother of all. Actually, very little is really known about Mary at all outside of a few sketchy facts.

    I am still a devotee of Mary. Mothers are always willing to hold a child’s pain, so, I’m not in disagreement with you regarding Mary’s place as an important woman. It can’t have been easy to be the mother of Jesus.

    If you don’t wish to use a female gendered pronoun for God, don’t. I am personally comfortable with both patriarchal and non-patriarchal language for God – as I believe he his male/father and more than male/father, and I am culturally comfortable with RC prayers. The words are all just symbols anyway – I can’t contain what God is, and to my knowledge no one else on earth can either. We are limited in our humanity.

    As for the information at the end of your post, it’s good to have. If I thought God really cared about such things, I’d follow through on it. I don’t, however, believe he does – those things are for humans, not the divine. He knows what we are in our hearts, regardless of what any piece of paper says or doesn’t say. Denomination is a human construct. Besides, my baptism and confirmation are valid where I currently worship, and I don’t wish to renouce my Christianity or my Catholicity – just my Roman Catholicity.

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